everybody hello and welcome my name is Claire Fennell oh I'm the executive director on f comm very pleased to welcome you to our webinar on animation animation animation just a few points before we get going the event will just for about half an hour 40 minutes with a chat amongst the panel and if you have any questions that you'd like addressed could you please post them into the comments and chat section and then what I would because I'll gather those and then put them to the to the panel at the end so they could address them as as a panel rather than them having to try and um that said over to Nick Hanna from the edge picture company and he will introduce the panel to you and then take it from there I hope you enjoy it and at the end of it it will all be visible and on our website with various resources that you can address as well so please do enjoy your hour and we hope to see you at the next one as well thank you bye hello everyone thanks for joining us today hope you're all safe and well it's today on our panel to discuss animation its pros and cons the Styles the technologies and types of animation we can use it looking ahead at where it's going we've got Jonathan Brickton from Studio giggle so hello Jonathan buddy there he is Nina Harrison from visualize that lamps from visualize that is also live scribing as we speak and that will be shared after the webinar after ali khan from liquid TV and Gabriel Edwards from liquid TV as well um I'd like to start really by a quick roundup of what everybody's working on at the moment obviously we're in a situation now where live-action firming is very difficult lion impossible so you guys up to Jonathan let's start with you we've been busy the last five weeks pivoting all of our we do film as well as animation although we're predominantly an animation company but we've been pivoting a lot of our film work into animation and trying to persuade clients that that's a good way of presenting what they originally wanted as a film so that's been quite a tricky task and also just making sure that all of the the work is just really flowing through the companies as smoothly as possible so we released we did an internal R&D project recently with a generative software called knotch we did something with motion capture suit which you you should be able to see at the end of the of this this this webinar so that took a couple of weeks and that's been released now so I encourage you to watch that and we're just really doing the same kind of work that we usually do I think the biggest issue for us is that the all the event work we do a lot of work for events there's all dried up completely so we're now trying to replace that what what are you guys up to it visualize that at the moment we'd actually been commissioned to produce a number of animations actually prior to the lockdown which were incorporating interviews video interviews with contributors for a financial organization and what we've managed to do we first of all the initial reaction was to just say let's just make these as straight animations and then what we've realized actually if we adjust the style of animation and perhaps even what we have done it with one of them is completely redone ripped to suit to make it now and I think for that reason it's we've been able to justify they incorporate self-generated content but we also create pictures which are shareable that aren't digital though they're Crace in the digital capacity they're not video and they're not animation what we're trying to do is actually generate those turn those into many animations as well fantastic that's right you guys up to it liquid we are mainly in the television sports world so both of which have pretty much and stop functioning but we were lucky enough to have projects prior to the lockdown so we continued to complete those and then once those on hold and we've started writing our own pieces of the programming that can be animations short especially within markets that consume more graphic led work such as series work factional series entertainment and so we've just been in the same games Jonathan in trying to do the persuasion tactics I'm trying to show people that there is a possibility here to engage in storytelling in a different way fantastic and um no do you think clients understand animation well enough understand its possibilities what should they be thinking about in terms of commissioning sure I would say is no personally I think a lot of people see animation as tinsel or they will call it graphics and put it in there sort of a lowly level of a slight addition if they need something to be explained but actually it should be more integral I also think it's something which it has to have a creative phase so we know the purpose of the communication and then the animation style or the mixed media approach is then led from there so I think there should be a more cohesive use of animation I think sometimes to see they chose to come from sort of fixed profiles thinking agenda find it difficult to reach out to something that they think is scary or problematically for them they think is expensive all because they don't understand it they think they can't then work with it because you know they're not quite understanding what is going on but I think they need to reach out to people in quieter times as well like these learn how to it used to working with it but also learn to you know work with teams that they trust and build a rapport or build with and understanding then you get better value as well because we engage with people and do some work gratis to help them also win projects so that then they have a decent saying and what this this this should all part of the portrayal of their work Thank You Nina what would you say to that in terms of perhaps misconceptions about animation well I was I was going to sort of add to what's just as was just said actually in that I think one of the issues with animation is people see if it's be not personal enough so it's very hard to empathize with Pete with with the story if it's in animation but I think and they want the real-life person or they want the personal storytelling approach but actually the animation is developed there is the ability to be incredibly persuasive and emotive and impact the audience still through the script and perhaps the visual approach and also some of the animation techniques that can be used so I think Matt's potentially why people are still stuck in this this frame of mind that animation is is a there's a there's a barrier between the audience and the storyteller than what other people think about that Jonathan I was gonna bring you in on that because you shared the lovely isolation film you made which has no dialogue no faces yet I felt very moved by it you know I think an animation that incredibly powerful tool demotion what do you you say to them I don't we don't seem to have this those problems that have just been described so much I think because people just generally come to us for animation they they know what they're going to get there sometimes there is a an initial that it might be cartoons for example you know that's the thing oh I'm gonna get a cartoon but nothing could be further from the truth really a lot of our stuff is it's quite immersive and sometimes photo-real so it could be sort of going into the visual effects world as well as the sort of animation world so there's a very fine line between where our projects cross from one to another and I think if anything imagine animation can can can show even more emotive subjects and you know you have to look at any short from Pixar for example than that they're always quite sentimental and pulling on the heartstrings so it's it's really important I think with any client to show them a big tranche of work that you've done before so that they can actually decide whether they like this or whether they like that or they don't like this they don't like that so that they really do understand exactly what they're buying completely agree with you on the Pixar front they are some of the most beautiful powerful films ever made but on that note you know do clients come to you wanting you know The Incredibles and having a budget for you know two pieces of they've been in techniques and costs I suppose is what I want to get into you know there's 2d 3d stop-motion all sorts of technologies out there thinkin we we decide on the animation approach depending on many things I mean we you know we're looking at the brand brand values the audience where the animal where it's going to be shown the format and then we will make a decision that whether it's something that would be an organic piece of animation whether we would film something and then we are enhancing that or we're doing high-end 3d or deciding to do make something into 360 it's in terms of cost we approach our work by that that's probably one of the earliest things we will ask is what is the budget spend that the client wants us to work within and then we will work our creative ideas and approaches look and feel and methodology to cut the cloth to fit because the beauty of animation now is that you can literally do anything you know from the very simple to photorealistic so that's how we tend to work so actually budget isn't as much of a problem as producers might think it is I think it's more an understanding of for the budget line that they should attribute but you know we can go add them on that Gabriel we haven't heard a lot from him so far Gabriel can you talk to us about the difference between tickly animation and 3d animation a little bit and and what occasions are on that point where we were sort of talking around which is how why this sort of subject animation is we have some things that okay we can call them 2d animation they enlisted like slow-mo live-action manipulation they shouldn't see it's just to suggest it's moving our emphasis on a flat plain additional terms they were brought cell by cell we see a lot of these days text use 2d animation stop reduce animation communication really quickly people are always okay well that's going to be really expensive and obviously because of the complexities that are it also be really quite quick a lot of the packages these days get very good feedback you can read character there's an even some water wriggling and express quite a lot with it it just and make sure is a huge thank you very much we're just losing you slightly Gabriel in and out on the oil yes and just a little checked on that now what sort of techniques you use you know we took 2d and 3d and do you stop motion as well that sort of thing not ordinarily no think there's a sort of I'd say the main piece of work that we do is the use of hand-drawn is using software to create hand drawn videos which are based on they work with lots of clients to capture strategy in a large capacity and then build out pictures that share a story that you know might have been discussed over three days and it's you know content just share those key messages or stand I do do a lot of animation using do lots of info graphic animation that not not 3d not not on 3d okay but with this sort of hand-drawn stuff of Brazil nuts quite can be quite a quick turnaround Kenny that's that can be that can be generated reasonably quickly and it's also very low-cost it's you know and it's it's much more effective than sharing one image so it's been a transition really Lance my business partner who spent you know 15 years creating content for prints or for use on the web and turning that then into animated pictures essentially yeah technologies are you investigating I think you probably at the most of higher tech in perhaps and what what's the latest thing I suppose that you're working quite a lot with I mean like I said in that previous film we've been doing some motion capture and then creating an animation effect with it I mean it's arguable whether that's a film or an animation in fact because it was called captured live and then treated in real time using the software called knotch where we're just beginning to and doing work with Unreal Engine and looking at game engines because the render time is so long when you're doing complex 3d work it's got faster and faster and faster as the computers have got they've got better and better but it's still you know looking at you know spending a lot of money on on on staff that are looking at render bars moving slowly along a screen sometimes scenes archaic and so we're really exploring GPU rendering we're exploring like I said I'm real and unity not she's very good for graphical work so we're doing lots of graphical work at the moment and it just means that we can we can get things done quicker so I think you know where people look at animation as a slow process it's getting faster and faster so we just embarked on a project yesterday that's a very simple graphical animation for it for a charity it's 30 seconds but it we're going to get it done in two days so it's it's a very very quick turn around and obviously at the moment we're a lot of work has dried up you want to you want to grab every opportunity that you can with both hands so you know without wanting to drop rates too much and all that kind of thing you do want to you know get the work and and and get it through the studio so that so that your staff have had lots to do those those are the kind of things working at moment the other thing is obviously VR we're doing that we're doing bits and pieces with VR and extended reality as well so a studio that it's a bit like a sort of green screen studio on steroids really so you've got a camera that can move around and the graphics change as the camera moves around so it's constantly tracked in real-time so that's something that we're working a lot on at the moment and we're taking this time actually to perfect that so it means that we can actually a lot more work in R&D that we that we we didn't have time to do before clearly everyone's working and busy and that seems to be one of the advantages of animation or whatever combination animation were using at the moment you know to step in and fill that void that has been created by the lack of live action you say animation is fairing at the moment in general I think it's a very very well I think it is we don't work remotely that's you know really one of the biggest advantages of it is the setup and being linked to everybody very easily and being able to output a lot of work I think as a technique and a tool it's perfect for what is going on right now the issue is joining up dots of those within our industries to exploit it better I've been actually quite surprised at how slow some people are to see that so there is a lot that animation could do to aid and house repurpose and or revision where a project might be stuck at least have that conversation but I think it's this is exactly the time where animation and animators and people wanting to learn animation and it's a perfect time for them right now you know do you think there is an opportunity here to sort of show animation is capable of in so many different form I think definitely I mean I think one of the one of the points is you know I know we've touched on V&R but you could move into the armoire but I think you know with time perhaps time where you you've got time sitting in front of your Mac or your PC or whatever piece of equipment you're using might as was just said you know taking the opportunity to learn some new techniques but equally I think you know what one of the one of the questions I have which I you know I'm sure many people do in us who is are the budget is going to be there to create the content in the same way that we've been accustomed to in the in our previous existence you know is it going to be a case of you know in the way that people are talking about the working world shifting and real estate is it going to be the same is filmmaking going to be the same potentially not because I think if if people can see the opportunity that animation brings it may not be necessary to have a huge shoot with lots of people I wonder whether it I'm not suggesting it would be an overnight thing but I think if people have lots of grit to the technology and they're comfortable with the medium and it's actually achieving the same objectives I think you know ultimately it's it's what's the objective of the communication if the if an animation can achieve it then I think there will be assured that there will be a shift and I wonder whether it's going to come sometimes down to budgets I mean Gabriel what would you say to that I mean it seems to me that the that we all have to be even more creative now to to come up with answers for you know restricted filming opportunities and potential budgets yeah I mean I think it's a lot a lot of our animations in the communications sector involved around us from the housing structure so you can take assets like stuff you stop shot previously maybe and you can tell the new story bus for wrapping it up that's going to be very valuable to people you can't get up and shoot and neither saying that people will come to realize there are other ways of getting this message across possible getting it across better than sticking the opportunities we have if a client is thinking about using animation for the very first time would you say to them Jonathan in terms of should they approach a project if they're thinking okay we need to make a film of some kind but obviously we can't film anything at the moment what do we do you say to them all animation has to follow a a process anyway so immediately there's there's a ton of questions that we ask our clients was often like you've alluded to Nick that they come without really much of a clear of exactly what they want they might give you a brief but it really is a jumping-off point for what they're trying to say and I think like as rest' mentioned you know if you can find out their budget first I mean it's a very it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation because they never want to give that up lightly as we all know so it's it's it's really trying to kind of persuade them that the thing with the thing with animation is it really can you know go from five thousand to five hundred thousand in in a heartbeat so you know as soon as you add a character for example or in any kind of animated character this 2d or 3d and you're talking about how that person looks and you know how tall they are and how they walk and have a you know their face works and all of that kind of thing it's it immediately becomes a very subjective discussion so you're you're constantly asking questions and showing previous work hopefully you've got enough work in your own archive that you can show them existing work but often you're going you know or you're asking them show me something that you like that you want to see and that inspires you and then that can be something that you can you can start with but but like I say it's it's sometimes it's a very short conversation because you know people come to us with you know dreams of Pixar and have a thousand pounds and so the conversation ends quite quickly and sadly but it's really it's just trying to get to the nub of what they're trying to spend what they wanted to do what elements are in there what's the story that they're trying to tell one of the most important things obviously it's sort of the story has to come first and then the technique maybe be laid on top but it's just being very inquisitive with that clients I mean usually you hopefully have an existing relationship with somebody but and and you fall into that short short hand conversation that people understand what you're providing but when it's a new client it's often uh especially that first job it often doesn't make as much money as they do down the line because you're spending so much time on the phone with them you know consulting with them and trying to trying to eke out what they want from their film Thank You Jonathan Azra I think Jonathan mentioned something very interesting there that we touched upon which is about storytelling and finding you know what is the the essence of this whatever it is drive the actual technical execution if you like absolutely I mean at liquid we it's you know talking about animation it's really important just a Jonathan said not just to be talking about the execution part of animation you know we are a creative motion house so what that means to us is that look at the narratives earth the audience kappa story sometimes that means we have to write a script we also look at the brand a value is it's a very multi-layered piece of work we're doing and sometimes there's multi stakeholders involved they will have their different outcomes that they're looking for and so for us so we do a lot of creative work first whether it's writing we do very high-end storyboarding then we are I mean me very much tend to try and do everything face to face with clients so because I can really read between the lines it's what client is saying and what their meaning and for you to be able to fill the gaps in for them I think Jonathan's point about asking us questions is it extremely important in that journey but for us you know I always act as the punter for me I love film and television and motion so if I'm trying to explain something I have to understand of it which means I need to be motivated and entertained so entertainment is one of our core values that we really like to entertain the images because we need it animation profile at the end to be memorable in its messaging so that's how you know that storytelling for us is is a mainstay conceptual thinking and then the animation be it stop-motion or live action enhanced in some way or traditional becomes to really the whole tone of the piece that we're trying to put together and and I do think it's important for us to to reflect the the brand itself and what I mean a human wants to be on behalf of its audience whether that's a program whether it's its sporting event whether it's a live event you know those tonal values are really important pick up on a question that Peter Richards is asked about a rough ratio of budget from creative development to production and almost how long's a piece of string isn't it depending on the type of production yeah I mean I would say you know obviously the the value is on screen the clients will be very happy if you're doing a 50/50 split unlike on the creative and the execution but sometimes we will explain to a client that the pre-production we are creating assets goes on to be animated so it's it's probably more like a 70/30 split I would say and there have been times when it's got very 50/50 because there's been an enormous amount of technical work involved and we're all set so we'll do whatever so there's there's a lot more that's inside as well but I would say that's a reasonable died yeah you know what would you say to that how does that ratio work for you and what's your sort of process in creating an animated film straightaway it's the you know if you can't get would agree with Jonathan and Astra and that you budget not necessarily forthcoming but I think the more you work with clients and you understand the audiences they're trying to reach then the more you under and budget level at which they're probably working with so you know it's it's not unusual for clients at for companies to be looking at similar spend on on content but I think you know once you've got get through the budget conversation I think you're right you know Atlas V it has been mentioned and you know we'd like X but we only have Y to achieve X I think it's really understanding the the purpose of the animation if it's within a film what's what's the animation bringing to the film if it's not a pure animation and equally what is the film bringing to an animation work so that you can achieve and also it's it's you know it's thinking about or how long is it you know if you're creating opening titles for a program clearly there's a you know set parameter but but if if you're creating a piece of content that's perhaps going to be shared with employees firstly you know is it all in English you know what's the language considerations but equally how long should it be and I think that comes from an understanding of of your of understanding the audiences that clients have and what what the purpose of the communication is if you really understand your clients audience and and you are able to you're able to engage you know the sense of the story and how many storytellers that perhaps needs to be then and that's where you can you can look to sort of refine the project I think brilliant thank you we talked a lot about the cost of animation and they you know almost sort of slightly negative front I think and to mean animation such a wonderful medium in terms of allowing us to go anywhere and do anything and isn't there an actual benefit to that so being able to use animation so you don't have to go around the world and film things or have lots of actors or whatever it is I think in relation to the budgets it gives you opportunities to use some different techniques or just different approaches so your client might have a particular need in general terms and we as the creators have got lots of different hey just of a 2d or 3d or you know lots of all lots of animation tricks to reduce the amount of work used to seeing lip-syncing but it's an over-the-shoulder shot so you can see person they're talking to you but there are lots of little things like that in animation that we can use to cut off to fit so you know we are very much synthesized art dance that's what you want to get across how much you've got to spend you on it we'll worry about you know the creative look and feel and all the other bits you know we've obviously you know moving the teaser of finding a ways to cover top can I just add today one of the exciting things about animation is that you can put the camera or anywhere shows you are limited and that is really some things that you can tell the story from a number of different angles and you can do some very interesting things so I think that's something that is limited and also update ability that's another thing with animation you can you know we remake something will change bits of the Edit and without having to do a rish eat much more cost-effectively I was gonna say you're right there because actually actively you can create if you're creating a suite of assets they can be used across variety of content you know and quite often you know primarily we work with brands and they've got their existing brand that just need you know there needs to be brought to life in a in a in a moving way or enhance through through other technology so you you but you can create a suite of content and arguably without having to you know to go off and source lots of new material yeah I think that's a very good point you know we picked up on the ratio of budget of pre-production and production but actually when once you've done all that design of characters for example you make one film when you make the second film's it's the second one's gonna be cheaper isn't it Jonathan would you pick up on that in terms of what are the benefits of animation we've made lots of series of animations I mean often you're you're you're sometimes taking your your customers brain your clients brand and moving it for the first time as well so they might have they might have a set of brand guidelines that there's always just been a logo or maybe they've got some characters already in their brand or or photography or graphics or that kind of thing and until they actually give it to you and then you're starting to move brand around it really does develop how their brand is seen and used and you know it's a bouncy brand is it serious brand as you know how does how does a logo move into position so we are making series so you will you will create maybe a look or a set of characters for example so say you're explaining a something for training and you want to show the staff of that organization and they might be a certain kind of quite simplistic character you can use that character over and over again you can set up a whole suite of infographics that a part of your tool kit for that particular client it feels very much like it's theirs and the time the time scale comes down drastically once you start you start getting into that rhythm with the client as well because so often it's sort of getting to know you creative relationship that you've you know we've all had clients that have been very difficult to start with because you're just trying to get into their head and understand what they want and root around and give them what they were offering they're not articulating very well once you work with that person a few times you know you get you get into that shorthand and you know it is much much more straightforward I've been talking to the ratio is you know at least 30 percent of the time is spent on that creative side of things up to 50 you know obviously it takes a long to make the thing but it's really important as well to track that time you're spending on that creative because often you get lost in creative process and especially now in this time where you're sort of locked in your home and you're you're working on projects and you're zoned in I mean lots of our artists giggle constantly sort of plugged in anyway so they they're they're on a project for long periods of time but you can quite easily lose track of time when you're creating and making sure that you don't give that special thought and that creativity for free and you're sitting there at 10 p.m. having not notice the days gone by and the end and that's there any playing you till six you know that's about four rounds of creative juice you're giving for free so it's very it's very important to track that and make sure that they value that creativity really importantly you know they can see people sitting at desks and an animating away but it's really coming up with those initial ideas that they should be really really valuing so what would everyone say to fellow animators and visual content creators graphics designers etc at the moment you know where do you think animations going particularly at the moment but also sort of sort of broader in the future let's go to Gabriel - that one first time - until those Gideon's stuck into some of the R&D it's going in the future I think that you know there's a sort of basis of animation that hasn't changed for a hundred years we think a lot of things like rejection but actually Disney was doing that base will always stay there but we're getting to a whole new sort of set of tools we're starting to see more more tools that automate the process you can just get on with creating the animation expressing and ideas just expressing motion just gets easier and easier because you're dealing less of the time so it just you know keeps broadening out so just just get in there thank you Nina what what where do you think it's heading as a medium I think it should be feeling very positive because I think I mean you know I don't have a crystal ball but I think that I think I fear that budgets will be reduced and for content creation you know purely because there were so many people losing the jobs in in business in sectors that are usually clients Mike think would they start questioning the you know spending they've been spending on content creation and I think are they going to be looking for new techniques and new ways of still being Al's communication will keep running and they will still need to be educating so arguably you know certainly people who are small operations who might have reduced overheads might think well this is you know actually a great opportunity to start exploring other techniques but equally I would think you know start thinking about clients that haven't you know almost as we started really people who haven't yet started using animation and start looking at how you might be able to help them do some animation start producing some content and looking at out there and saying would you like something like this you know all your competitor is doing this perhaps you should consider doing this as well and if we are going to be in a world where generation of content is self generation of content then animation can enhance that also I'm going to pick up on another question how are you encouraging creativity lost in lockdown well I mean I think pretty much from the very first day we worked and we worked a lot down nearly two weeks before the country went into lockdown because I think I thought it was obvious what was going to happen I think it was just sensible for my staff safety and just having all our sets up running and tested and so you know as well as the work that we had on and at time everybody had to go away and come up short form program ideas you sort of look at where what's going on in terms of the loss for all it says so entertainment taught and case so you know we worked around we did it as teams we brainstormed we did it separately you came we used the same process as we always do we did research or didn't the boards we roped things we did some test work so you know it gave us a point the throw to and I'm sure it's true for everybody and who works with in motion is that you just don't find the time to play and that's one of the things I would really encourage people is you know surprise yourself this is a good time to play you aren't better divided the remit of a brief you know we went show you're often hemmed in by so that allows you to do things that you might otherwise not get to do so you know not having a brief is actually sort of released quite a lot of thinking and artistry we have very different disciplines I tend to hire very politically and so that people have of what I would class as innate skills that they bring the bear style to something and then they can learn different tools of animation or software evaluation but they should have some passion in that they bring to the table and so it's given them that opportunity and to do that and there is no doubt that things have been developed that we will be able to use tastic rim pick up on another question here for Jonathan relating to artificial intelligence I'd imagine artificial intelligence already plays a part in certain types of animation already doesn't it Jonathan I mean software has been utilizing to a certain extent artificial intelligence for a long time but it's it's in many ways I think it's more of an opportunity than a threat which is the question I think you know artificial intelligences is a bit of a dark heart at the moment and it wasn't that long ago that 3d was a bit of a dark art and you know for good 20 years 3d you know 3d animators that were really really good at what they did were like gold dust you know and could charge an awful lot of money for their services that's increasing in new applications that people are using all over the world now and if you have a master in a control over your tools that you can utilize those for a great creative project you're you know you're always going to be in worth I think it's it's it's a massive opportunity rather than a threat I think you know there are going to be certain things that become more and more automated and you know creativity is you know potentially the whole of the creative industry is under threat from up from artificial intelligence you know if you can if you can if you can automate anything intelligent artificial intelligent way but I think the creative spark will never die you know people will always have that and that is a human attribute and it's it's it's a long long way off on that I think moment fantastic thank you Claire I'm aware of the time being around corner to 5:00 I don't know how much more time we have it's fine actually and you've taken the questions as you've gone along so that's perfectly fine and I would suggest that you take this opportunity to wrap up now there was one question that I noticed Leon sort of clients are interested in extending at the moment because we're all at the moment extended reality offers a really good opportunity to do remote presentation on a studio floor where no one else is present so you can automate the whole process so if you have moving hair cameras for example and someone can walk into a studio completely you know are doing to social distancing and be in an LED environment so they can see what they're you know in the the weather the weather people that are you know just dictating to a green screen they're very experienced at gesticulating to a green screen as our Hollywood actors that are constantly doing that but your your average chief executive or some speaker that is getting on stage and trying to interact with something are usually completely flummoxed by that so if you can give them any kind of visual cue or somebody that they're actually talking to it adds it adds a whole lot of naturalism to to their presentation so an extended reality studio enables them to really do a meeting I think for us it's it's it's keeping the meetings industry going and the events industry going so that people can actually feel like they're presenting live in a really really vibrant environment because we're constantly being asked you know not in this situation to create innovative environments for events whether that's immersive or projection mapping as has been mentioned earlier and this is this is the next stage on from that and it just enables everybody to operate in isolation so we can do all the graphics for example from home the studio can be solely operated from another room and the person walks in delivers what they need to deliver and we're looking at streaming in you know up to 50 people into that space so that you can have a proper conference kind of feel and then that they gets broadcast on whatever platform you need to be broadcast on so it's you know there's it's also just sort of the film industry you know if anyone's seen any of the making of the Mandalorian and-and-and what Jon Favreau has been doing with all of that that's that you know that is easily the future of film and how you create incredible environments with with less money basically fantastic well on that note thank you very much to everybody really appreciate your contributions today I'm sure everyone's found it fascinating thank you to everyone who's been viewing as well and listening along to hope it's giving you some insights into the world of animation at the moment and where it's heading and thanks very much stay safe and well everybody thank you I'd like to add my thanks to Nick the edge picture company for facilitating Ezra and Gabe over from liquid TV Nina and Lance from visualize that and Jonathan from giggle thank you all very very much and thanks for your input and as I had said at the beginning we were unable to show the films during the discussion but they will be on our website so please do go back to the website and have a look at those because I'm a lovely lovely little pieces those examples but thank you very much for joining us all